On God’s existence: Malawian atheist Thindwa Vs Pastor Masikamu
After my earlier article entitled “Where is the loving God in times of People’s suffering…” which was published on Nyasa Times online news media, the renowned Malawian atheist George Thindwa responded through an email and without redaction, below is how our arguments went;
George Thindwa:
Your analysis is archaic and meaningless on the above subject. Your observation that there is too much suffering is correct.
Then from such observations you must prove that God exists. Before you start proving, define God first. And deduce whether your God fits the observation
1- Yes, he is claimed to be LOVING. What does loving mean? Does suffering and loving agree
in your analysis? The answer is no!
2-God exists. You have come to this conclusion too fast. Prove what a non existence God does to
suffering. Because he does not exist, he will definitely do nothing to human suffering. This is
what is obtained my dear. We are suffering and nothing is done about it. A situation that a non
existent God would do. Therefore God does not exist! An existing God that does nothing must
be a fool.
3-Free will is foolish for a God that is loving, and powerful. So to say that God gave people free
will is archaic reasoning. I will kill people because God gave me free will- that is what you are
saying?
4- Do n`t you think that you could have made this world a better place if you were God yourself?
5-Qouting the Bible to prove God is redundant and poor un professional work. You cannot get
anywhere with it unless you collaborate with other sources of information.
6- An existing God cannot exist in BELIEFS. Beliefs are not facts. So God being a belief and not
fact equals He does not exist!
7- Give us science stuff to prove or demonstrate such important things that affect people not
verbal testimonies of Jesus this or that!
Regards
————
Robert Masikamu:
Greetings Mr. Thindwa,
Thank you for taking your time to react to my article on Nyasa Times online media. You have termed my analysis of the existence of God as archic which I may not totally disagree because God has been, He is and He will forever be.
We don’t need new findings to justify the existence of God for His existence doesn’t need to be defended. God is self-defensive and when we argue for His existence does not mean that the reality of His existence is defenseless. What we see on earth and life we have bear witness to His existence.
When we defend God’s existence, we are only trying to prevent heretical teachings on His existence while at the same time washing hands to those who deny His existence like you so that on that judgment day, you have no excuse when you are to account on what you did with the life God entrusted you with. We also not do this to show off intellectual capability but basing it on a hope that one day you and many others will believe that God exist. Mr. Thindwa, from your email, I see that you are not far from believing that God exists basing on the following:
1. You are able to differentiate between God and god meaning that you have the concept of
God or god in your mind.
2. You have said that God who does exist but does nothing must be a fool. This means that
you don’t have a problem with God’s existence but you have a problem with His
passiveness. All you want is for God to intervene in every human suffering by rooting it out.
From this, I hear you saying that God does not love people because he does not intervene;
we have a God who is a fool because He does not intervene. However, remember that, it is
said, fools say in their heart, there is no God. I hope you don’t want to be categorised as
such.
3. You asked if I don’t think, I could make this world a better place if I was God myself.
These points show that your problem is not God’s non-existence but His passiveness. My
answer to this question is no because I would not be God, there is only one God and no
other.
On the question of the definition of God, I would say that God is not an object because He is not a “what” BUT “who”. In that respect, I would answer the question of “who is God?” God is the author and omega, the beginning and the end. He is the creator of heavens and earth and what is in them, including you Mr. Thindwa. The existence of everything defines who God is. You have said that I shouldn’t use the bible because it is archaic forgetting that you depend on science while I depend on what God says.
Like I said, God does not change but science changes and fails, may be that makes my dependence on the bible archaic because this God has been there before anything else was created. Scientists have failed to create life because they are created beings depending on God’s revelation to do what they do but what God has not revealed, they cannot do. True scientists acknowledge the existence of God.
On the analysis of a loving God but suffering people, I would like to emphasise that God is loving. He loved us from the beginning. He loves you Mr. Thindwa regardless of your abominable statements against His powers. Mr. Thindwa, note that, God created man without suffering but man invited suffering through his disobedience against God’s command. If man obeyed, there would be no suffering but we chose to do otherwise.
Just as some choices of our parents affect us sometimes, the choices of the first man (Adam) affect us till today. Mr. Thindwa, are you telling me that punishing your child for disobeying you is an expression of a cruel father? Punishment may also be an expression of love to put your child in the right way. We suffer as a result of our choices and sometimes choices of people who hate us. God should not be blamed for our suffering. He meant good by creating us but our disobedience has brought suffering.
Free will does not make God a fool but rather a God who puts some trust in us. God gave orders and emphasised that man should do what is right by obeying Him but man disobeyed. Remember that choices have consequences, thus what we see and experience today. You can’t tell me that you can keep on making choices for your married children. You leave them to make their choices because you trust their capability. Does that mean that you hate them if they suffer as a result of wrong choices they make? The answer is no.
Mr. Thindwa, you have said that beliefs are not facts, and since God’s existence is about belief not facts, equals, He does not exist, what is a fact? If the answer is the dictionary one, then believe that God exists. Like I said, the creation attests to His existence. In addition, God does miracles which man or a scientist cannot do such as instant healing of the sick.
Brother Thindwa, are you saying that you don’t acknowledge the existence of the word belief or believe? Are you saying that at times you don’t do things you are not sure of their outcome? If you do, then you are not far from believing in God’s existence. I believe that, you plant crops even when you are not sure if rain will come, that is a belief, thus God exist even if you haven’t touched or seen Him face to face. You are at times told of people who existed before you and you believe even if you did not see those people, why should it be difficult for you to believe in God’s existence even if you have not seen Him but seen His works?
My brother Thindwa, using science to prove God’s existence cannot work since what is created cannot attain wisdom more than of a creator to prove His existence. He is not an object to be contained in a scientific laboratory. While I appreciate the effort scientists have made to make this world better, at the same time they have brought more problems than before. They have created sophisticated weapons to kill more people. They have made chemicals which have poisoned the creation. They have made poverty more visible by creating posh cars, prestigious phones and many others which many people are not able to buy thereby labelled poor. Don’t blame God for these. Science is limited, God is not.
If the Bible cannot take us anywhere, how far has the evolution theory of Charles Darwin taken us? If man came from chimpanzee as many scientists want to make us believe, tell us, who created Chimpazee? After Homo sapiens (human beings as we are) scientifically, what will we become and after how many years are we to become what you anticipate? Lack of answers to these questions is an invitation for you to believe in God’s existence and depend on Him. Mr. Thindwa, besides your unbelief about God’s existence, one thing is clear, GOD EXISTS and I pray that His grace reaches you to realise this fact. God has a purpose with your life and that is the reason why besides your insubordination against Him, you are still alive.
In my conclusion I request that you consider answering the following questions:
1. How did what exists come to exist before anything else existed?
2. How did it happen to be a man and a woman and not only a man or a woman?
3. Without sneaking into the bible, tell us what existed first between man, animals, vegetation,
water, sky bodies and land and why in that order?
4. Have you ever believed in God’s existence before and why? What made you stop believing in
His existence if you ever believed before, poverty or riches, healthy or sickness?
5. If you don’t believe in God’s existence, why do you even mention the name “God”? I mean,
does something that does not exist have a name? Are you sure you are not working under
someone’s influence?
6. It is clear that miracles do happen, with your science; tell us, how does this happen? E.g. the
deaf and the blind recovering instantly after faithful prayers.
7. You were told of the date you were born; do you believe and tell people about it? Your
memory was not fully developed then, why do you believe in what you were just told
Prove you reasoning.
8. My last but not least question is, do you only believe in existence of what is seen, felt and
tangible and not what is not seen, felt and tangible?
Regards,
Robert Masikamu
George Thindwa
Noted and thanks,
Your response show the same way religious people put their case- NO EVIDENCE USED. Here are some intelligent responses to your questions
1- I do not know.
2- I do not know
3-Try to check work of evolutionist. They have an idea.
4-I lack belief in God as God as a concept is meaningless. I am not the type that believe in Gods
and yet there is no evidence for it. am not so stupid as to waste time in beliefs.
5-God is one of the terms around. Have you come across talking snake? Zombies, Witches,- they
do not exist. Yet we have terms for these!
6-There are no miracles. Faith prayers are a hoax.
7- I don’t believe in the date I was born. It is not a belief. It is a fact.
8- Foolish question commonly asked by believers. This is how we go about issues. Make a claim
about say air, define it and then test with observation and data- then you have it whether seen
or unseen!
For example: God is defined as very powerful, everywhere, loving and perfect and answers prayers. Test with data and observations. Data: people are suffering= fact. Haiyan in Philippines has just killed 10,000 people-FACT. Test these observations with the God attribute of loving and powerful. My friend you have the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Mind you use any many observations as possible. My was just a simple example.
There are comprehensive studies on the efficacy of Prayer- Step Study, Colombia Study etc – The conclusion is that there is no god who answers prayers. Prayers equals Talking to oneself without feeling silly!
A christian God with the attribute of loving and omnipotent cannot exists and therefore does not exist.
Another one that is easy. Here we go. God is everywhere. There is space that I occupy in the world-FACT. That is why people are able to see me and say there goes Thindwa. The space I occupy therefore cannot be occupied by anyone else. Therefore God cannot occupy my space simultaneously. Correct! Therefore that the Christian God is omnipresent is rubbish. Thus an omnipresent christian God cannot exist and does not exist.
If you have brains you will understand.
Also love Science. This world and yourself are better off with Science and not religion as religion is collective Insanity!
Thanks
Robert Masikamu
Greetings Brother Thindwa,
Now I know that you have a problem to understand the God we talk about. God is the spirit; therefore he doesn’t need to occupy space like you and I do. Or don’t you believe in the existence of the spirit also?
I still say, God loves you brother though you don’t believe in His existence.
Blessings
George Thindwa
Robert
What is that- spirit? Mawu odyera eti (just a scapegoat)?
Robert Masikamu
Greetings Brother Thindwa,
To answer your question on what it means by God being the Spirit, the answer is that God being the Spirit means that He is a Supernatural being whose presence can be felt and His voice audible to human beings but He is disembodied to be perceived by our naked eyes.
Note:
Brothers and sisters in the Lord, this shows that the devil is at great work to mislead God’s people. Please, let us keep on praying for people like George Thinda without ceasing so that one day they may come to the Lord and serve as witnesses of our Lord Jesus Christ. Never believe people like Thindwa.
You can also note that the answers “I don’t know to my questions” doesn’t portray intelligence as he has put it. He says science has answers, if he has great interest and commitment to science, why does he not know? He does not know and if he asks for answers, then God He rejects is the answer to those questions.
OUR GOD EXISTS; HE IS THE CREATOR AND LIVES FOREVER AND EVER.
May God bless you all!
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